In this episode of the Tech4Good South West podcast, host Arielle Tye speaks with Matt Bakall, a digital youth work specialist working at Space Youth Services, about digital youth work.
They discuss the evolution of youth work in the digital age, the importance of meeting young people where they are, and the challenges and opportunities presented by technology.
Matt shares insights on defining digital youth work, the need for training future youth workers, and the concept of 'Tech for Good' as an approach to using technology to positively impact young people's lives.
Takeaways
Tech for Good aims to amplify technology's positive impact.
Digital youth work is evolving and not replacing traditional methods.
Engagement with young people should be co-designed with them.
Understanding youth culture is crucial for effective service delivery.
Technology should be a vehicle for engagement, not the focus.
Youth workers need to be lifelong learners in a digital world.
Online safety and digital literacy are essential components of youth work.
The future of youth work requires relevance and adaptability.
Youth workers should embrace technology to connect with young people.
Listening to young people's voices is vital for effective youth services.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Tech for Good South West
01:48 Exploring Digital Youth Work
05:57 Innovative Approaches in Youth Engagement
10:14 Understanding Youth Culture and Technology
15:50 Defining Digital Youth Work
20:33 The Role of Youth Workers in a Digital Age
25:19 Future Skills for Youth Workers
27:37 Conscious Technology Use for Good
Transcript
Tech4Good South West (00:03.168)
At Tech for Good South West, we're passionate about building momentum for the Tech for Good movement across the south west of the UK. Our mission is to amplify the positive impact of technology in tackling societal challenges and creating stronger, fairer and more connected communities. By fostering a regional Tech for Good community, we aim to support initiatives that ensure technology serves the greater good and enable everyone to thrive in the long term.
Throughout this podcast, we'll be joined by a diverse range of voices from across the tech sector, charities, investors, startups and community-driven projects as they share their stories, challenges and hopes in harnessing Tech For Good. Join us as we explore a world of Tech For Good right here in the Southwest, brought to you by Annie, Alicia and Ariel.
Welcome to the Tech for Good Southwest podcast with me, Arielle Tai. Today I'm joined by Matt Bacal from Space, a youth work organization based in Devon. Matt is a digital youth worker. He's part of a creative team that are delivering youth work in digital spaces. He's also a guest lecturer at Plymouth Margin University, teaching digital youth work as part of the youth work course. Welcome Matt. Hello, thanks for having me.
So Matt, what the Tech for Good Southwest podcast listeners might not know about me is that I also have a background in youth work. And currently my role involves supporting youth services to rethink how they operate and engage with young people using technology. So I'm really excited to be talking to you today about a subject that I'm also so passionate about. We're going to be talking about the brilliant work that you're doing at Space, running virtual youth clubs and other initiatives.
And we're also going to be exploring what digital youth work is and why it's so important. So firstly, it would be great if you could introduce yourself and tell us a bit about the work that you do at Space. Brilliant. Okay. So, hello. I always really struggle with this bit because I will always say, do you want me to start at the beginning or do you want me to go in now? yeah, I'm a digital youth worker. I wasn't always a digital youth worker up until five years ago.
Tech4Good South West (02:17.464)
We had a pandemic in the UK, so that sort of really accelerated the work that I'm doing. Up to that point, I was working in a youth center. was doing generic open access youth work for young people from 11 to 19 in Devon, very traditionally grounded stuff. I never thought that I would fall into this area, I suppose, but I suppose that's very youth worky. We don't necessarily pick our paths, we kind of fall into them.
Right now, yeah, we run a virtual youth club, which is countywide as a provision. The membership's about 200 young people at the moment. So that is young people who are 13 to 19 accessing on Discord. So the idea of that is we replicate everything that you would like to see in a traditional youth club. We're just trying to replicate that online. So we have games, activities, people to talk to. So that's the youth work side.
big emphasis on young people making friends and developing their personal social skills. A lot of the young people that we work with are predominantly within the LGBTQ plus community, or they are, Lerodivergent. So actually they gravitate towards online because that's where you can experiment, do stuff, stuff with anonymity. can pick names, whatever you need to sort of figure out as you sort of navigate your way into adulthood. That's sort of like, so that's my bread and butter. And that's sort of.
Within space, we do loads and loads of stuff. So it's an element of a wider picture. So we run eight youth centers around the county. We run a school for young people at risk of exclusion. We do street-based provision. We also sort of work within the voluntary sector to support another 74 voluntary sector youth clubs. That's that may be wrong. So the whole idea is it's part of this living breathing organism and that we sort of believe that digital youth work is not there to replace.
um, traditional youth work methods. It's another offer. So they should all flow into each other. If you meet a young person, you're doing a street based project, they might want to come and play Minecraft with you. Likewise, if you meet someone, a street based project, they might want to go to a club because actually, although we work with young people who are in their houses, that's not necessarily where the best place for young people to engage is. Cause you know what? Home could be rubbish.
Tech4Good South West (04:32.674)
So actually you might want to leave the house. you know, it's, it's an extra flavor, but it works really well for young people who cannot access traditional means. So other bits and bobs that we do is we're involved in the moment. We're doing some piloting VR stuff. So the idea of that is that we're looking at how we can kind of re look at what a traditional one-to-one intervention or group work intervention might look like. So if you have a young person that doesn't leave the house, the idea would be if you've got a VR headset.
Cool, all right, I'll see you in this safe space at four o'clock. So you're bringing the youth worker in to their world or likewise you're bringing their world to you. And I'm also trying to figure out ways that we can look at, try to reinvent the way that young people might conceptualize what youth space or youth club looks like. The idea of that being, if we meet a young person in school, we'll go, here's a flyer, come to our youth club, it'd be cool. And they go, I don't quite fancy that, that sounds really scary.
If we've created a mockup of the youth club in VR, for instance, you know what it looks like now, now you know where the exits are, where the toilets are, here's the ground rules, here's what a youth worker looks like. Cool. Should I see you in the building in real life, like next week at this time? So sort of using other methods of tech to sort of like bridge those gaps where young people are quite sort of anxious. And that work as well was sort of inspired a little bit by, I just had a colleague that was doing a one-to-one the other day, like face-to-face one-to-one. This lad just looks at me and goes, Matt, are you going to be a bus driver?
was like, cool, all right then. So I just went off and like, just downloaded a bus driver simulator on VR and they lost their minds. They were like, this is the best thing ever. Thank you. You've helped me like realize and role play like what this can look like. So I got thinking about that and I was just like, actually, what are the other elements? Like a lot of young people I've worked with over the last 15 years will say like, I'm too scared to go in public transport. So how do we role play that? And there's loads of fantastic initiatives using virtual reality and stuff up the North, cause we're in Devon. So like everywhere's North from here.
that will do like knife, grind workshops and stuff like that with gangs and things like that. actually where are we as youth workers on that spectrum of sort of helping young people visualize stuff in a way that's not just like, here's a PowerPoint, here's some handouts. Like how do you use tech to sort of really engage young people? How do we run a really good online youth work offer that's countywide and sort of how do we, how do we sort of share our expertise or where we're at and get other people to.
Tech4Good South West (06:57.582)
So we've had to make a lot of mistakes in the last five years. It's not been, it's not been all plain sailing at all. Like, you know, there's, there's been a real lot of learning and we don't want people to make those mistakes. so that's kind that was a really long waffly way of saying sort of where we're at and what we've been up to. But yeah, it's, it's really exciting. It's a, it's it's a really interesting area of youth work, which is it involves constant learning, which can be a challenge in itself.
And sort of say, if I worked in a youth club, you know, the rule sets that's got 50 years of proud heritage behind it. So I know if I do X, Y, and Z, this will happen. Whereas digital, like even the platform discord that I'm using right now, that could be different in three or four years. I strongly say we are not the discord team. just use discord as the vehicle. That's our mini bus right now. Um, and that's quite an interesting area. Like even if you look at the, um, online safety bill, that's already out of date. Took three years to develop. That's already two years out of date.
So it's like, there's a lot of constant learning and evolving. It's a really interesting, thriving sort of new area and it's great. And I've probably, I've probably not taken a breath in about 20 minutes, so I'll stop now. No, carry on. I love your passion. and this is how I felt when we first chatted before, because I'm so excited about this space as well.
You're absolutely right. What you're describing there is really the heart of using technology to deliver services better, that it's constantly evolving. And that's why we often talk about digital transformation as a mindset. So it's not really like you said about the technology, but it's actually about how we understand youth culture and how youth culture is changing and how the world is changing and then how we use technology to actually deliver our work in a new way.
And it's not just youth work. know, I think the same thing is happening all across the charity sector and other other sectors as well, where there's often this growing void between how our services were originally designed before digital was part of daily life and what's needed now to really meet people where they are. That's a really interesting point. And I like, I'm not sure if you've seen, you probably definitely have, but it's a lot of like blogs and stuff that are going out at the moment, which is like a lot of people are sort of talking about stuff designed by grownups for young people.
Tech4Good South West (09:16.238)
We're not involving young people in stuff in the conversation anymore. Or we're so heavily leaning on what we're comfortable doing. What was it I had the other day? Oh, um, digital is really bad because young people aren't outside playing anymore. So it's like, that's not my fault. So that's a really interesting thing. like, that's not my fault at all. I'm not a parent. I'm not giving an iPad to a five year old, but I can relate because you know what? Back in 1991, I had a game boy.
And I would sit all summer playing that then I'd go on my bike. So it's like, actually society, like, you know, we need to think about, think about where young people are and really genuinely be invested in their lives. I stopped being scared of it. If we knew that there was a gang in a community and we have a street based provision, you make a really robust risk assessment. You're brave enough to go there. So why are we not being tech brave? It's sort of a big thing that I say.
And I know that seems like heresy, but it's not. It's just like, actually, surely it should be really exciting. One of the work of young people and caring, like I'll always commonly say, like I couldn't code to save my life. I've got a tech role. My job is just to be stoked about it. Go, you know what? Tell me about it. That sounds amazing. Cool. Should we speak to someone about it? Like, but that's youth work, right? So I think sort of, I think youth work is a general sort of like.
idea and methodology to informal education gets so hooked up about what it is instead of what it could be and I think that's like that's a really interesting point at the moment but I see it as a really interesting time to reinvent really be interested or I'll controversially say it feels like the last realm of radical youth work left which is really
mad really because we've always said we're radical educators we've got to be where young people are but if we've got this whole area we do not even understand where they are we're folding our arms being like not for me thanks that's how i say it's the last frontier yeah i want to talk a little bit more about that actually because when we connected online it's because i'm working on a project at the moment in wales in one of the local authority web areas david powers and we're looking at what are young people doing online
Tech4Good South West (11:36.398)
And then actually we're speaking to young people about this to sort of find out more and understand from their perspectives this gap really that we know that exists and good on this local authority for actually saying we need to do something in this space and let's firstly talk to young people. And the first consultation that I did, one of the comments that really stuck out for me was that one young person said, adults don't understand the online spaces we use.
And they were saying that they actually found it challenging to have these conversations about stuff that was going on for them when where we are and what we're living in is very different. Um, and so, so it's even challenging to then have those conversations. And I think that was a comment that I put out on my LinkedIn and that's when, know, you connected with me. Oh, that was me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It resonated with me. So like, you know, there was a grownup out there that was trying to understand, um, it's hugely important, isn't it? And.
I know it's scary and I think it was Jefferson Smith's that was said that like, you know, it's okay to accept that the youth workers are not the font of all knowledge. And that wasn't even talking about digital youth work, but that really sort of resonated with me. It's just like, actually, no, we don't need to be the experts. And I know that's really uncomfortable, but that's also really exciting because like we should be lifelong learners. So yeah, why are we not interested in where they're hanging out online?
Um, I regularly have conversations with people that almost think it's witchcraft that young people are meeting strangers online and talking. I was doing that 21 years ago. Like, and I was finding people, I was falling in love. I was wanting to move to Manchester, wherever in the world that was 20 odd years ago. Like this is not new. Um, I think I was at a summit in Scotland a while back and somebody said that like, you know, 30, 30 years ago.
like the internet became common practice in every household. And interestingly they're saying it's no safer now than it was back then, which is really interesting. So why are we not trying to work there? We need to really try and be there to truly try and like, it's not even about protecting, it's about understanding the worlds that young people are in and not being so petrified. Like, why are we so scared? Cause if it was scary, young people wouldn't be there, right?
Tech4Good South West (13:57.038)
But even that actually in itself, it's like the only people I particularly work with, the idea of risk is different. And that's quite an interesting concept for youth workers as well. We'll say a lot about what risky behavior looks like, but it's always framed around teenagers want to go on a rope swing. They want to do something. They want to run away from police. For young people that I'm working with, risk is stepping out on the front doorstep. So that flips the script completely. That's a massive different area of psychology. They're not going to go on a trip. They're not going to go bungee riding lines.
It's helping to rewrite what the world of young people look like. And I work with lot of young people that are home educated or young carers and stuff like that. That's a totally different flavor of young people that would have been excluded to youth work traditional approaches or just youth work full stop actually, because you've got to go through this, you've got to come in the building. That's it, of. You know what mean? So it's really interesting.
I'm loving the fact that yes, it's really cool that local councils and authorities are starting to really take it seriously. We're doing a bit of work at the moment internally with, I think my police crime commission, which is about online harms. Cause that's ever changing. Cause we don't know. And even the training that we received could be massively out of date by the time we actually implement it. So it's just like, actually it's got to be a constant narrative of young people. What's scary? What should we worry about? What affects you at the moment in a digital world? Cause you've got the whole world.
in your phone, what should we be worried about? And it's really interesting, like, I guess kind of by not listening to young people, it's how you got the Andrew Tate's and stuff in the world washing over like toxic masculinity that came out of nowhere, right? I still don't get it. It's like, because we probably weren't listening. I don't think we were agile enough. that's reflecting on myself. You know, that was, I'm not, I'm not commenting on anyone else's practice, but I feel like I probably wasn't aware of it enough.
Just got to listen to where young people are. It's really interesting because we've talked about VR, we've talked about this, we've talked about skills. Now we're talking about online harms. I think some people still aren't sure like what is digital youth work? Because I've heard some people pin it on digital youth workers making podcasts with young people or making videos or being in discord. Like so, but it's also all these other things like online harms and media literacy.
Tech4Good South West (16:20.334)
What would you say, what is digital youth work? If somebody asked you. man. Okay. I could give a million different responses. The real answer would probably be it's about using technology or mixed media as a vehicle to engage with young people. is not necessarily about being online because it might not be. You might be sitting down doing a coding club face to face in your
community center, wherever you are. It could be, you could be doing a podcast. You could be doing an online youth group like I do. It's, it's about seizing technology and using that as your pool table. All you are doing is changing what the pool table looks like. Cause I want it to be like, you squint, youth clubs look the same now as they did 70 years ago. It's the same thing. You just changing the pool table. It's the vehicle. Why would you play FIFA with young people in a group?
because it's about developing group work skills, learning how to play together, learning how to deal with what happens when you lose, win, sharing those experiences. It's about that. It's like, know, and I think there's such an important role with it because you know what, young people are playing games, young people are taking photos, they are recording music in their bedrooms. So we need to be part of that journey because that's really exciting because young people are really amazing and it's not about us.
It's really not, we need to stop making about us as grownups, because I'm old as hell. Like I want to be part of those journeys with young people and really sort of help to navigate them into a really safe point of adulthood would be really cool. Um, and I think I get really excited about the idea of sort of like volunteers or young people I've worked with in the past coming back or influencing what we do, because I joke about it. I'm not 20. So it's actually like.
They've got the strongest voice. They're the experts at being young in the year 2025. I am not. I can talk about all of the cool youth work stuff and the safety stuff, even tech and system design and stuff like that. But I'm not a teenager in 2025. They're the experts of that experience. It's just like, yeah. And there are like, you know, there's a million scholarly explanations as to what it could be. can look at Virk from Finland. We worked on, us in space worked on the national standards with the NYA.
Tech4Good South West (18:44.0)
National Youth Work Agency, should have said, which is a really, really good definition. So that was, that's been a really lovely partnership over a couple of years with Bex, who is like total partner in crime. met like early in the pandemic days and it's bubbled out into this lovely network of practitioners around the country, including like Paul from Essex Youth Service. He's like the Britney Spears of the digital youth work world. I've got to calling him. That's really cruel, but like they're the rock star.
I like it over the field right now. They're doing like Roblox youth clubs. They're doing a lot of VR stuff. They're just really like putting digital on the map at the moment. Loads of other really, really cool colleagues at the moment. I've met just by sharing this vision that like actually what is it? Yeah, and I think to add to it, I do a lot of work in youth information and particularly digital youth information. I think that's a massive part of it as well. It's like...
how are we actually providing young people with information in these spaces when they need it and how they need it. Like you're talking about the online harms, but actually if we create positive content that they can actually engage with, again, it's like both providing those interventions, like you said, being the pool table, but also when they are searching for stuff, what are they finding and why aren't we there?
And that's across all services. So whether like you're a homeless organization or you're providing support for mental health, how are you actually engaging with young people with the information services and support that you're providing? Because otherwise how are they going to find it? So that's massive. Like listening to, I think we're about to start a bit of work with the include plus network, which is part of Leeds university as well, which is, that is one of the things we're doing. So it's a little bit of short piece of research, which is.
looking at wellbeing resources. So I want to talk about with that, young people, do you know what there is that you can access? What does that look like? And is it relevant? Do you think you can access that? And it's not a critical takedown of what exists because there's so many amazing charities and organizations that do an amazing job. But do young people know where they're looking and what they're looking for? And how do we listen to that? What does that look like? Is it good?
Tech4Good South West (21:02.454)
Is it terrible? Like there's a big reason that we use discord and I probably should have said earlier. It's like, only use it because young people are there. Like we fought the urge to build an app. We've really struggled with that. were like, we can build an app and it'll be amazing. It'd be safe. It'd be pure. But I wouldn't use it. Young people, you've got to go where they are. So like, actually that's always really important. It's just like young people need to be co-designing where possible, because it's impossible to co-design everything. co-designing where possible and at the forefront.
of everything that we do. The most important voice that we have is the young people that are not accessing our stuff. So that's the really biggest thing. Like I think there's 80,000 young people in Devon. Space access 7,000 within our club's provisioned online youth club. What's the voices of those that aren't coming to our things is actually kind of, I mean, yes, the people that access us massively important, but they're already the S-crowd, they're already on board. They're kind of going to tell you what you want to hear. So I want to know the other like,
70 % listen more than that. My math is terrible. What are those voices? How are we best developing services for that? Really interesting for what you do in your day job. That's kind of stuff as well. Cause actually like, yeah, how'd you access that? I used be a monster in my like open access, like face to face days. Cause I'd be like, right, want a hundred surveys for young people that don't come to club. Why would you do that? It's just like, cause I want to know why they're not accessing club. Is it the day? Is it the price? it cause some of the stuff's on? Is it cause you just don't want to go to youth club?
And that's okay. You know, it's like, I would be like a real monster for trying to get those stats. Cause I feel like that's really important, really rich kind of stuff to try to figure out their journeys. anyway, Really important. It's incredible work. I'm, you know, it needs yet more of these questions, more of these conversations and, and, and sharing the learning as well. Cause like you said, it's a completely new space and, talking about sharing the learning. knew, I know that actually you are.
a guest lecturer at Plymouth Margin University. I'd like to suppose ask you a little bit just around what are those foundational skills maybe that the new youth workers need? That's cool. I'm yeah, shout out Tracy, Rob and Caroline that are teaching the youth and John or actually sorry John, who are teaching the youth and community work degree down there. So.
Tech4Good South West (23:26.52)
I'm currently, for all my sins, studying a master's degree as well, because I was just like, I want to learn and research more about youth work. Like I just wanted to just kind of put my money where my mouth was professionally. So part of that was we went about creating a digital youth work module within the youth work community work degree. The biggest part of that is about youth work being relevant. And I know that's an awful thing to say, but if we are churning out...
Open access youth workers or street based youth workers or people that are doing the same jobs that already exist, but we're not actually offering the opportunity for youth workers to train in an area that is developing. feel we're not setting up to build the youth workers or workforce of the future. So it's about that. It's about maintaining relevance. It's about making sure that people have a sound understanding as to what youth work could look like in a digital world. So it's about.
What are examples? What could, what does an online youth club look like? What do even talk about social media and, um, big bits of our curriculum stuff that we would talk about in our day to day practice, like echo chambers and all of that, and all of that, like critical thinking in an online space. That's part of like what needs to be taught. It's about relevance and the future of youth work. And I know that sounds really grand, but it's, is, it's about like, just making sure that our future practitioners, that our future ready and tech brave.
you're not learning about tech on the module. Yeah. I love what you said there. Like we don't, we don't teach about tech, you know, on the digital youth work course, because actually I teach service design and the amount of times I get comments from people at the end where they go, I thought that was going to be really techie and it was all about people. And it's like, yeah. And it's about relevance and those words that you're saying it's like, yeah, it's just about bringing our services up to date and doing things that people need now.
And actually it really is all about people, isn't it? And it's not about tech, which is also very empowering for people. Cause once they understand that mindset, that's an ongoing thing. think because as we started earlier, isn't it, the technology is always going to be changing, but actually being able to adapt and have those like, you know, agile ways of working and being able to experiment. Which unfortunately sometimes the public sector, like youth provisions, they don't always have that level of
Tech4Good South West (25:48.246)
freedom either, for good reason too, you know, because of course there's risk and there's safeguarding and it's really, you know, it's challenging then to be able to work in that space where you are going to do something that is new and so there is going to have to be a new risk assessment and that does make people feel uncomfortable. And yeah, so I, off, I suppose I want to say to like all the youth workers out there that are
you know, really doing new things, to sort of engage people in, these new ways. And it sounds like you're doing that amazing work at space as well. I want to, I want to finish, by asking you a question that we everybody on this podcast is the tech for good Southwest podcast. And just, you know, there's no wrong answer to this, but what does tech for good mean to you in your context? You know what?
full transparency. I said, I said to you earlier, I listened to quite a few of pods. And then I was just like, I feel like a real fraud answering this question because I'm not involved in developing apps at this present time or any of that stuff. But actually I really sort of reflected on tech for good from my perspective is it's about making conscious
decisions about how you can impact the worlds of others. So for me, it's about, yeah, am I going to go as a practitioner and work in an environment that's using technology that can help possibly better someone's life? Yes, I am. Am I going to advocate for apps and things that are going to make people's lives better? A hundred percent. I really feel that there's a lovely buzz within the Southwest at the moment of so many creative people. And, you know, it's not just academics or practitioners or whatever, like
It feels like we're in a bit of a Renaissance period because like, know what, the world can be pretty rubbish at the moment, but there's a lot of people that are really trying their best in their little corners to make it better. So it's really lovely that we're sort of part of a movement where people are embracing technology because let's face it, that barn gate is wide open and the horse is bolted so long ago that the horse has now got a new name and family. Like we are not stopping the advancement of technology. So you've got to be behind it, right?
Tech4Good South West (28:07.63)
Cause actually you just sound really out of touch. Otherwise. So for me it's about that. So it's just, it's all about embracing technology, really trying to be conscious of what you're doing. It's a great answer. And like, you know, you're a hundred percent doing tech for good. know, you're a hundred percent doing it. It's awesome what you're doing. And, um, yeah, I'm really excited to like continue our discussions. I'm glad that we met. I think we've got it. We've got, it's got to happen.
Yeah, we've had these conversations. I've, I, I'm on the Tech Good podcast because I moved to Bristol and lived there for five years. And, um, I'm, now moved back to Wales. Um, but I'm still very, very close to what's going on. You know, there's such a good scene going on in Bristol in this space. um, Well, they're all so close anyway, aren't they? Like, Oh, like it's all universal. Like, you know, it might change a little bit.
But I think the general vibe of what young people are going through at the moment is pretty much similar. Yeah. Wow. Thank you so much. I absolutely love talking to you. there anything else that you would like to say, I think through space, if anyone does need any support or wants to speak about digital youth work, my emails are open. If that's looking at...
training, partnership stuff, whatever, like, you know, I think we can certainly have a conversation. That'd be really cool. I live and breathe digital youth work. I am such a hype guide for it. And I really want people to feel inspired by maybe what I'm doing and to hopefully wants to make footsteps into looking into a career that doesn't, the career path for digital youth, it doesn't exist yet. So let's make that, let's design it.
And like, you know, it's really exciting. And all I care about is just like, actually, how can I impact the world to young people? That's because that's really cool. So yeah, that's it. Thank you. Genuinely, this has been a hoot. Thank you so much for your energy and this awesome conversation. Yeah, thank you. And thanks for joining the podcast.